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Sprott Sees Record Gold Price in 2012 on Debt Weight
Jul 12th, 2012 14:07 by News

July 12 (MoneyNews) — Gold will climb to a record by year’s end as the global economy slows from the weight of too much debt, says Eric Sprott, the founder and chairman of Canadian fund manager Sprott Inc.

“I just can’t imagine the demand for gold is going down,” he said in a July 9 interview at Bloomberg’s Toronto office. “I don’t personally see a solution to the problem that we’re in, the financial leveraging issue that we all have where everybody wants to shed debt and there’s no buyers.”

The metal “should go to new highs before yearend, that would be my guess,” said Sprott, 67. “Gold has blown away every financial market in the world since 2000, let’s not forget that.”

[Source]

Erskine Bowles: ‘We Are Going Over the Fiscal Cliff’
Jul 12th, 2012 13:36 by News

July 12 (ABC News) — “I think if I had to tell you the probability, I’d say the chances are we are going over the fiscal cliff,” Bowles said. “I hate to say it, but I think that’s probably right.”

Bowles, whom Obama appointed, along with Simpson, to create a bipartisan debt-reduction plan, said today that because debt reduction was “politically painful” and “really tough,” it was not likely Congress and the president would make the tough choices to reform entitlements, cut spending and simplify the tax code, as the Bowles-Simpson plan suggests.

“I think that if we don’t get these politicians to come together we face the most predictable economic crisis in history,” Bowles said during this morning’s interview in Sun Valley, Idaho. “I think it’s absolutely clear that the fiscal path we are on is not sustainable, and for me, the best analogy is these deficits are like a cancer, and over time they will destroy the country from within.”

Bowles said that “every nickel” the country brings in each year only paid for interest on the debt and mandatory spending on entitlement programs, such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.

“What that means is every single dollar we spent last year on these two wars, national defense, homeland security education infrastructure, high value-added research, every dollar was borrowed and half of it was borrowed from foreign countries,” he said. “That is crazy. Crazy! It’s a formula for failure in any organization.”

[Source]

Fed officials warn of looming crisis for economy
Jul 11th, 2012 12:49 by News

July 11 (AP) — Fed officials warn of looming crisis for economy, discuss steps to boost growth

Most Federal Reserve policymakers agreed last month that they might need to take more action to support growth if the U.S. economy loses momentum.

Minutes of their June meeting released Wednesday show that Fed officials signaled their concern that the struggling U.S. economy could worsen if Congress fails to avert tax hikes and across-the-board spending cuts that kick in at the end of the year. They also expressed worries that Europe’s debt crisis will weigh on U.S. growth.

Members said the economy should continue to grow moderately. But the Fed lowered its growth forecast at the meeting after seeing the U.S. job market weaken and consumer spending slow. It also said it doesn’t expect the unemployment rate to fall much further this year.

Many economists predict the Fed will hold off for one more meeting and give the job market a little longer to show improvement. If it doesn’t, the Fed will likely announce the program at its Sept. 12-13 meeting.

[Source]

JK Comment: Looks like more QE is coming, and with a early September proposed announcement, that’s just in time to aid in the typical seasonal strength in the gold price.

Gold Falls to Settle at $1,579 on Market Jitters
Jul 10th, 2012 13:59 by News

July 10 (CNBC) — Gold futures fell to settle at $1,579 an ounce after news of missing client funds from another U.S. futures brokerage prompted commodity investors to lessen positions. The selling erased early gains that occurred amid optimism for a European Union aid package for Spain.

Bullion weakened after PFGBest late on Monday told customers their accounts had been frozen. A U.S. industry body said about $220 million in customer funds were not in the brokerage’s bank accounts.

“With the 100 billion euro being made available to Spanish banks, gold should not be lower,” said George Nickas, commodities broker at INTL FCStone. “If Jefferies is doing an orderly liquidation, you have to believe that there have to be some concerns about ‘Do I let the positions go? You’ve got a higher degree of emotions now in a quiet market,” Nickas said.

[Source]

Can Gold Prices Climb to $2,000 by Year-End?
Jul 10th, 2012 11:34 by News

July 10 (International Business Times) — Commenting on the gold price, MKS Finance head of trading Afshin Nabavi stated that “It looks like $1,630 is pretty much a brick wall, while on the downside, $1,550 is equally strong support. So unless something extraordinary happens, we will be stuck in this range…Everyone wants to get involved in gold, but they have been disappointed several times, so I think we need a confirmation that gold is really going somewhere, and that will only happen when it gets above $1,630, only then will we have some investment come back into the market.”

While policymakers in Europe have provided at least some short-term support for the markets, uncertainty surrounding the sovereign debt crisis is likely to remain a considerable headwind, according to analysts at Bank of America Merrill Lynch. In a report to clients, the firm noted that euro worries could also weigh on the gold price in the event of further broad-based liquidation in financial markets.

Nonetheless, the firm reiterated its longer-term bullish forecast for gold prices, based in large part on what it expects from Ben Bernanke and his fellow central bankers at the Federal Reserve. “Loose monetary policies, with a scope for more aggressive balance sheet use in the U.S. and Europe, will keep real rates in most reserve currencies low (or negative) during 2012,” Bank of American Merrill Lynch wrote. “We continue to believe that this will allow investor demand to remain strong and prices to reach our $2,000/oz target by the end of the year.”

[Source]

JK Comment: Buys during these consolidation periods (periods defined by range bound trading), have more often than not proven to be excellent entry points into gold through the course of this bull market. While not true of every summer, these consolidation periods have also frequently coincided with what we refer to as ‘the summer doldrums’, a seasonal pattern of tempered price movement and quiet, low-volume trading. What’s really interesting is what seems to happen in the wake of a quiet summer. Check out this graph:

Quick explanation: The average gains coming after the end of July, when compiled over the last 10 years of the gold market, have been 11.3%. The total average annual gains through this period have been 16.6%. Put another way, on average, 2/3 of all gains for the year have come after the summer months. While the past isn’t always a predictor of future performance, the current range bound trading seen this summer is in line with years where the big seasonal moves have occurred. Check out the graphs of 2009 and 2010 below:

Last year this time, gold prices were exploding upwards, on their way to a record high of $1920. In atypical fashion, gold prices actually peaked in the summer in what proved to be an ‘anything but quiet’ summer. It was followed by a significant correction through the fall months. While its unknown whether or not gold will gain significant momentum before the summer is out, if you take the center point of the current trading range ($1600) and increase 15+%, as was seen in both 2009 and 2010, you come out to $1850. To reach $2000, prices would have to increase by 25%, a post-summer performance not seen since 2007.

If Bank of American Merrill Lynch’s forecast comes to fruition, the range we currently find ourselves in will most certainly have proven another one of these seasonal opportunities, in fact, one of the best to date.

We currently have some nice discount offers on 1 ounce bullion Maple Leafs, and pre-1933 British Sovereigns and Dutch Queens. Please call to inquire.

1-800-869-5115

Gold futures edge up after BOJ comments
Jul 10th, 2012 10:22 by News

July 10 (MarketWatch) — Gold futures turned higher Tuesday after the Bank of Japan said it will up its asset purchases to help beat deflation, and as the euro rose against the dollar.

The metal rose after Bank of Japan Governor Masaaki Shirakawa said the bank was implementing “strong monetary easing steps, such as its near-zero interest rate policy and asset purchases in order to overcome deflation,” in comments while attending a government meeting.

Shirakawa said the central bank has accumulated up to ¥54 trillion ($681 billion) of asset purchases so far, but is aiming for ¥70 trillion. And through the accumulation of another ¥16 trillion in assets, “we believe the impact of monetary easing will be further enhanced,” he was quoted as saying.

“Banks are now starting to pick up gold, given the amount of monetary stimulus pumped in across various economies across world,” said Michael Hewson, senior market analyst at CMC Markets. “They’re trying to mitigate currency exposure and currency depreciation.

“If you take the view the Fed is going to print more money, it would make sense for central banks to hold more gold,” said Hewson. “It’s the only thing you can’t manipulate print or devalue.”

[Source]

Gold Price Steady, Eyes Upcoming Euro Meetings, Fed Minutes
Jul 9th, 2012 11:51 by News

July 9 (IBT Times) — The gold price held steady near $1,585 per ounce on Monday as the yellow metal consolidated following last week’s 0.9% decline. The price of gold stabilized alongside the U.S. Dollar Index this morning, which inched lower by 0.1% to 83.292. In recent weeks, gold prices have fallen back toward the midpoint of the $1,540-$1,620 trading range that they have occupied since early May.

Last Friday the gold price fell over $20 despite the worse than expected U.S. employment report. While the non-farm payrolls data came in below economists’ estimates, the general consensus among investors was that the jobs report was not disappointing enough to meaningfully increase the odds of a third round of quantitative easing (QE3) by the Federal Reserve.

While the United States’ central bank may not be implementing further easing measures in the near future, several others around the world announced additional monetary stimulus programs last week. This past Thursday, the Peoples’ Bank of China (PBOC) unexpectedly cut interest rates, the Bank of England expanded its quantitative easing program by 50 billion pounds, and the European Central Bank (ECB) reduced its benchmark interest rate to a new record-low of 0.75%.

Looking to the week ahead, the U.S. economic calendar is relatively light, but does include a few key items. The Fed minutes – a recap of the latest Federal Open Market Committee (FOMC) meeting – will be released on Wednesday afternoon, followed by weekly jobless claims on Thursday. The week then concludes on Friday with reports on the Producer Price Index (PPI) and University of Michigan Consumer Sentiment Index.

[Source]

EURO GOVT-Spanish yields rise on low hopes for finmin meeting
Jul 9th, 2012 11:41 by News

July 9 (Reuters) — Spanish and Italian bond yields rose on Monday and financial market investors saw little chance of respite in the euro zone’s debt crisis from a meeting of finance ministers due to start later in the day.

Spanish 10-year yields rose 9 basis points to top the critical 7 percent level seen as unsustainable in the longer-term, re flecting doubts over how measures agreed last month to stem the crisis will be implemented.

“This is a product of the fact that implementation risk has come to haunt the EU summit’s plans more rapidly than might have been expected.”

Euro zone officials agreed last month that the euro zone’s bailout funds could be used to buy bonds in the secondary market – which could help Spain and Italy – and could also be used to directly recapitalise Spain’s ailing banks.

But the lack of detail on how the plans will be implemented, as well as opposition from Finland, have dampened initial market euphoria over the deal. Questions over the rescue funds’ capacity to undertake such steps, and no signal the European Central Bank would take any further unconventional measures to support indebted countries, have also not helped sentiment.

[Source]

Steve Forbes interview: Bringing Back America
Jul 6th, 2012 13:20 by USAGOLD

We’ve just posted a new interview of Steve Forbes by Hera Research’s Ron Hera at USAGOLD’s Gilded Opinion page. In it he talks about sound money and the gold standard being the surest road to curbing the federal government’s animal spirits and bringing back America. Enjoy.

Link

Gold falls after poor U.S. jobs report
Jul 6th, 2012 09:44 by News

July 6 (Reuters) — Gold initially rallied in response to the report, touching a session high of $1,609.39 an ounce on the view that the poor number would pile pressure on the Federal Reserve to ease monetary policy further.

The metal then turned sharply negative, touching a day low of $1,583.99 an ounce as the dollar rose to fresh five-week highs against the euro, reducing gold’s appeal as an alternative asset to the U.S. currency.

“The precious metals bounced strongly when the (payroll) numbers turned out to be below expectations. But after all the data is a bit mixed: it is not bad enough to suggest the Fed will go ahead with a new round of quantitative easing but at the same time it is not good enough to exclude it,” said T-commodity consultant Gianclaudio Torlizzi.

Quantitative easing by central banks devalues paper currencies and should in theory boost investor appetite for hard assets such as gold, traditionally seen as a hedge against inflation.

“While the ECB cut was near-term bearish for gold as it weakened the euro, it may be more bullish longer term. Added global liquidity with policy easing measures from the euro zone, China, and the Bank of England may stimulate demand for hard assets, including gold,” said HSBC in a note.

[Source]

U.S. posts weak 80,000 jobs gain in June
Jul 6th, 2012 09:41 by News

July 6 (MarketWatch) — The U.S. created just 80,000 jobs in June — about one-third of them temporary — as evidence hardened that the economy has hit another rough patch.

The unemployment rate was unchanged at 8.2%, the Labor Department said Friday.

The decline in job growth has raised the odds of further Federal Reserve intervention in the economy. The central bank will hold its next major meeting in late June and the Fed could launch a new program to buy bonds to try to drive down interest rates.

[Source]

Wall Street Journal’s Constable on central bank gold purchases
Jul 5th, 2012 11:43 by USAGOLD

Here’s a very good interview of the Wall Street Journal’s Simon Constable on the significance of central bank gold purchases, i.e., what it means to the ordinary gold owner.

Link

Gold rises ahead of ECB, real focus on US jobs
Jul 5th, 2012 10:17 by News

July 5 (Reuters) — Gold prices rose towards two-week highs on Thursday, with investors reluctant to make big bets after pricing in an expected European Central Bank (ECB) rate cut, with investors moving on to focus fully on key U.S. jobs data on Friday.

Spot gold was up 0.2 percent at $1,618 an ounce by 1004 GMT, treading water along with equities and the euro, also little changed ahead of the ECB meeting, where policy makers are likely to cut rates to a record low to contain the debt crisis.

Bullion is up more than 1 percent on the week, potentially heading towards its first back-to-back weekly gains since late February.

“I think the ECB is priced in — it’s been a case of buy the rumour all week and now probably some profit taking on the announcement,” Societe Generale analyst Robin Bhar said.

“The market would really need something big like a Fed move – not the ECB or Bank of England which is a bit more of a minor consideration.”

Friday’s June U.S. employment data is likely to reflect the impact of the euro zone crisis and weak economic data and this could encourage the Federal Reserve to take more measures to stimulate economic growth.

[Source]

China’s central bank cuts lending, deposit rates
Jul 5th, 2012 10:13 by News

July 5 (MarketWatch) — China’s central bank on Thursday unveiled a surprise interest rate cut, lowering borrowing and deposit rates while also enabling banks greater leeway in setting their own lending rates at a discount to the benchmark.

The People’s Bank of China lowered its one-year yuan deposit rate 25 basis points, or a quarter percentage point, to 3% and its one-year lending rate by 31 basis points to 6%, according to a statement posted on its website.

The central bank also announced more relaxed rules on lending for commercial bans, allowing lending rates to be set as low as 70% of the benchmark rate, down from 80% currently.

The move, the second rate cut in a month, was seen as part of efforts to prop up lending after data showed credit growth in an apparent stall in June. It also comes on a day when the European Central Bank cut interest rates by a quarter-point and the Bank of England extended an asset purchase program by 50 billion pounds.

[Source]

JK Comment: Here we go again…that’s two out of three of the world’s largest economies that are easing/providing stimulus.

ECB cuts rates; BOE boosts quantitative easing
Jul 5th, 2012 10:08 by News

July 5 (MarketWatch) — Europe’s major central banks delivered a further round of monetary stimulus in the face of a deepening slowdown Thursday, with the European Central Bank cutting its key lending rate to a record low and the Bank of England embarking on additional quantitative easing.

Earlier, the Bank of England’s Monetary Policy Committee voted in London to boost its asset purchases by 50 billion pounds ($78.1 billion), bringing the total size of the program to £375 billion. The bank said it expected the purchases to take four months to complete.

The ECB, however, surprised investors somewhat with its decision to cut the deposit rate to zero. Several economists had forecast the ECB would hold the rate steady or to at least hold it above zero, fearing a more aggressive cut could hurt bank profits and weigh on already-weak private-sector lending.

The Bank of England, in a brief statement accompanying its rate announcement, focused on a deteriorating economic picture.

“U.K. output has barely grown for a year and a half and is estimated to have fallen in both of the past two quarters. The pace of expansion in most of the United Kingdom’s main export markets also appears to have slowed. Business indicators point to a continuation of that weakness in the near term, both at home and abroad,” the bank said in a statement accompanying the decision.

[Source]

ISM services reading weakest since January 2010
Jul 5th, 2012 10:00 by News

July 5 (MarketWatch) — In another signal of a deteriorating U.S. economy, the services sector grew at its slowest pace since January 2010, according to an index released Thursday.

The Institute for Supply Management said its services index dropped to a reading of 52.1% in June from 53.7% in May.

While not the disappointment that the ISM manufacturing gauge was earlier this week, the services index came in below the 52.9% expected in a MarketWatch-compiled economist poll. The manufacturing sector is typically seen as reacting more quickly to changes in the U.S. economy than the services side. Read more on ISM manufacturing.

Readings above 50% indicate expansion, and major components in the index were still holding above that level.

[Source]

Draghi sees more downside risk for Europe growth
Jul 5th, 2012 09:57 by News

July 5 – Marketwatch -

European Central Bank President Mario Draghi on Thursday said further downside risks to euro-area growth have materialized and indications for the second quarter point to weakened growth and heightened uncertainty. Inflationary pressure has been dampened by the risks to growth, he said. The ECB on Thursday cut its benchmark lending rate by a quarter of a percentage point to a record-low 0.75% as expected. It also lowered the deposit and marginal lending-facility rates. “Beyond the short term, we expect the euro-area economy to recover gradually but see momentum dampened by number of factors,” said Draghi at a press conference. Such factors include tensions in euro-area sovereign-debt markets and high unemployment, which will weigh on underlying growth momentum, he said. “Risks surrounding the euro area continue to be on the downside.

[Source]

Only a handful of coins remain in our summer special: Angels and Kings
Jul 3rd, 2012 09:48 by News

Visit the link here to view remaining quantities and prices:

Morning Snapshot
Jul 3rd, 2012 08:51 by News


03-Jul (USAGOLD) — Gold surged definitively back above the $1600 level in overseas trading, underpinned my rising expectations of further central bank easing. The ECB is widely expected to cut its refi rate by 25 bps later in the week. Additionally, the BoE is likely to boost its asset purchase target by about £50 bln. While the FOMC doesn’t meet again until the end of the month, yesterday’s terrible ISM print (though offset somewhat by today’s reported rise in May factory orders) has once again raised the likelihood of some additional Fed measures as well.

This would all be in addition to the measures agreed to at last week’s EU Summit, which essentially amounts to a form of QE (using the bailout funds to buy sovereign periphery debt) and a European version of TARP (pumping bailout funds directly into the Spanish banking system). You may recall that QE1 and TARP in the US back in 2008 effectively ended the financial crisis inspired deleveraging sell-off in gold, catapulting the yellow metal from 681.65, back above $1000 for good, and ultimately on to the current all-time high of 1920.50.

With the yellow metal convincingly above the 20- and 50-day moving averages once again, a more constructive technical tone seems to be developing. The next significant resistance level to be watching is the early-June high at 1640.72, which is bolstered by the 100-day moving average at 1639.76. With gold still in the lower half of the broad 1920.50/1522.40 range, even with the recent gains, these prices may still prove to be the bargain of the summer.

• US factory orders +0.7% in May, above market expectations of unch, vs negative revised -0.7% in Apr; inventories -0.2%.
• UK M4 Money Supply – Final (sa) -0.1% m/m in May and -4.1% y/y.
• UK CIPS Construction PMI tumbled to 48.2 in Jun, vs 54.5 in May.
• Eurozone PPI slows more than expected; -0.5% m/m in May to 2.3% y/y, vs 2.6% y/y in Apr.
• Hong Kong retail sales value 8.8% y/y in May, vs 11.4% y/y in Apr.
• RBA holds Official Cash Rate steady at 3.5%, in-line with expectations.

US factory orders +0.7% in May, above market expectations of unch, vs negative revised -0.7% in Apr.
Jul 3rd, 2012 08:07 by News
Gold higher at 1615.73 (+20.84). Silver 28.00 (+0.55). Dollar lower. Euro easier. Stocks called little changed. Treasurys mixed.
Jul 3rd, 2012 06:26 by News
Morning Snapshot
Jul 2nd, 2012 10:38 by News


02-Jul (USAGOLD) — Gold retreated in overseas trading on Monday as the euro fell and the dollar rebounded amid dissipating optimism about the ‘grand bargain’ reached at last week’s EU Summit. After all, what transpired last week was just another kick of the can down the road. And while one might argue that steps toward a tighter banking union are steps toward a more integrated Europe, the measures agreed to do little to address the underlying imbalances that precipitated the crisis.

By early New York trading however, the yellow metal was on the mend and had traded briefly back above the $1600 level. With the euro still under pressure and the greenback underpinned, it would seem that the safe-haven appeal of gold is reasserting itself. The 20 and 50-day moving averages have converged just below $1600, marking this area as important resistance.

With a new record high in the eurozone unemployment rate of 11.1% and inflation moderating, the ECB is widely expected to cut its refi rate by 25 bps on Thursday. There is also a camp that thinks the ECB will only adjust the deposit rate at this meeting, discourage banks from hoarding cash and keeping some powder dry in case the ‘europhoria’ from the summit completely evaporates.

• US manufacturing ISM fell to 49.7 in Jun, well below expectations of 52.0, vs 53.5 in May; prices 37.0, vs 47.5 in May.
• US construction spending +0.9% in May, above market expectations of +0.2%, vs positive revised +0.6% in Apr.
• Eurozone unemployment rate edged to a new record high of 11.1% in May, in-line with expectations, vs 11.0% in Apr.
• Turkey Q1 GDP 3.2% y/y, vs 5.2% y/y in Q4-11.
• Switzerland retail sales improves to +6.2% y/y in May, vs upward revised +0.2% in Apr.
• Switzerland SVME Manufacturing PMI rose to 48.1 in Jun, vs 45.4 in May.
• Eurozone Markit PMI – Manufacturing was revised higher to 45.1 in Jun, beating expectations of 44.8, vs 44.8 previously.
• UK CIPS Manufacturing PMI rose to 48.6 in Jun, beating expectations of 46.1, vs 45.9 in May.
• South Korea CPI slipped to 2.2% y/y in Jun, vs 2.5% in May.
• Japan Tankan Index (Large Manufacturers) -1 in Jun, vs -4 in May; Large Non-Manufacturers index rose to 8, vs 5 in May.
• China HSBC/Markit PMI – Manufacturing slipped to 48.2 in Jun, vs 48.4 in May.

Operation Twist: New York Fed purchases $1.810 billion in Treasury coupons.
Jul 2nd, 2012 09:30 by News
Gold eases as post-EU summit rally runs out of steam
Jul 2nd, 2012 08:45 by News

02-Jul (Reuters) — Gold prices eased on Monday after the previous session’s sharp rally, surrendering gains along with the euro and other commodities as a bounce lent to the financial markets by European Union plans to tackle the debt crisis petered out.

Gold surged 3 percent on Friday, its biggest one-day rise since June 1, after euro zone leaders agreed at a summit on measures to cut borrowing costs in Italy and Spain and shore up the region’s banks, leading to a broad financial market rally.

It has since surrendered some gains, but lingering optimism over the summit’s outcome, reflected in gains in stock markets and falling Spanish and Italian bond yields, provided support.

[source]

US manufacturing ISM fell to 49.7 in Jun, well below expectations of 52.0, vs 53.5 in May; prices 37.0, vs 47.5 in May.
Jul 2nd, 2012 08:35 by News
US construction spending +0.9% in May, above market expectations of +0.2%, vs positive revised +0.6% in Apr.
Jul 2nd, 2012 08:17 by News
Gold lower at 1588.60 (-8.70). Silver 27.35 (-0.12). Dollar firms. Euro retreats. Stocks called better. Treasurys little changed.
Jul 2nd, 2012 06:21 by News
EU Debt Deal Only Making Problem Worse – Jim Rogers
Jun 29th, 2012 11:45 by News

June 29 – CNBC – VIDEO

Link

JK Comment: Rogers makes a pretty simple recommendation here: “Buy hard assets”. A must watch take on today’s news out of Europe and subsequent move in, well, everything.

Europe’s next big challenge
Jun 29th, 2012 11:04 by News

by Mohamed El-Erian
Once again, after a painful learning process and motivated by the best of intentions, European leaders gather in crisis management mode. Important decisions are taken but, again, they appear to fall short of the dramatic breakthrough required to get ahead of a crisis that eats away at the integrity of the region’s historic integration project.

…Without additional measures, it seems inevitable it will only be a matter of time until European leaders gather again for a crisis management meeting; and they will find the challenges even more onerous.

[source]

PG View: The massive ECB LTROs bought a couple weeks of relief for beleaguered European markets, the initial announcement of the €100 bln Spanish bank bailout garnered support for a single trading day, so focusing the might of the EFSF/ESM bailout facility on the problem should be good for what? A month? Less?

Operation Twist: New York Fed purchases $4.668 billion in Treasury coupons.
Jun 29th, 2012 09:22 by News


Author key: MK - Michael J. Kosares; GC - George Cooper; PG - Peter A. Grant; JK - Jonathan Kosares; RS - Randal Strauss. [see also 12 yrs of Discussion Archives]


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